Selepas 8 tahun Jawatankuasa Fatwa Kebangsaan mengharamkan penggabungan nama anak angkat dengan nama penuh bapa angkat tanpa menggunakan bin atau binti Abdullah, Jabatan Pendaftaran Negara (JPN) didapati masih belum melaksanakannya.
Berita Harian hari ini melaporkan, Pengerusi Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan, Prof Datuk Dr Abdul Shukor Husin, berkata fatwa itu dikeluarkan pada 2000 selepas majlis berkenaan mempertimbangkan permohonan JPN untuk membenarkan penggabungan nama anak angkat dengan bapa angkat dalam sijil pengangkatan dan kad pengenalan.
"Walaupun alasan yang diberi untuk menyelesaikan masalah sosial dan perasaan anak serta keluarga angkat, ia bercanggah dengan hukum syarak berdasarkan firman Allah SWT yang bermaksud 'panggil mereka dengan nama bapa mereka'. "Majlis Fatwa turut menyarankan JPN supaya meminda Akta 253 supaya lebih jelas dan memenuhi hukum syarak," ujar Dr Abdul Shukor.
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Nur Aflah : Saya berharap pihak-pihak yang bertanggungjawab perlu mengambil serius tentang perkara ini kerana sudah tiba masanya fatwa yang dikeluarkan oleh Majlis Fatwa Kebangsaan dipatuhi oleh pihak-pihak yang berkenaan.
8 tahun it takes them, what were they doing all this while, conducting khalwat raids, making side money, getting rich, adoi adakah ini cara but keputusan, meanwhile orang tua yang tunggu memang sudah mati. inilah di panggil orang tak cukup belajar ataupun orang terlalu malas but kerja dia, makan gaji buta kah?
ReplyDeleteBismillah Hir Rahman Nir Rahman
ReplyDeleteCik Nur
Bagi pendapat saya pula , jangan nak letak kesalahan pada JPN je, mereka ada pekerja yang mengikut arahan dari pihak atasan ( pihak kerajaan memerintah). 8 tahun sudah berlalu baru nak diperbetulkan, apa punya kekalutan pihak majlis fatwa ni, menyalak seperti anjing dengan bukit . Ada banyak perkara yang pihak Majlis Fatwa harus bertindak sekarang sebelum nak menyalak seperti lagi e.g apabila seseorang mualaf memeluk islam sepatutnya kad pengenalan beliau sudah otomatik dah tertera agama islam supaya tiada kekalutan apabila beliau mati nanti ( sudah berapa kes tuntutan mayat di makamah )dan akuan bersumpah apabila si mualaf memerlik islam dan segala rekod disimpan pihak JPN maupun Perkim dan juga apabila seseorang mengambil anak angkat , si bapa angkat tadi tidak boleh merubah nama asal sianak angkat dan tidak boleh menghilangkan nama bapa/ibu sianak angkat tetapi diberi ruang agar di aliaskan nama baru sianak angkat didalam KP/surat beranak.( Mungkin Boleh kot. Islam itu Mudah ,so tolong di permudahkan.
assalamualaikum cik nur...
ReplyDeletemungkin saya boleh cuba explain sket pada hj jamaludin tentang muallaf. adik ipar saya seorang muallaf yang menganut Islam pada tahun 2004. pada tahun 2005 dia terus ke JPN untuk tukar kad pengenalan. selain IC, seorang muallaf mempunyai surat pengesahan Islam dan kad Islam. dalam kes muallaf ni, pihak majlis fatwa tiada kena-mengena langsung. kes kekalutan semasa mati ini takkan terjadi sekiranya yang mengambil inisiatif adalah muallaf itu sendiri bersama orang yang membawa dia memeluk Islam, & mungkin juga atas nasihat pengeluar kad Islam & juga Perkim sendiri. saya lihat IC adik ipar saya itu tertera nama Islamnya berserta dengan agamanya sekali.
pada pandangan peribadi saya, seorang muallaf seringkali di'sisih'kan selepas dia menganut Islam. tercari-carilah dia sendirian. mungkin tu sebab ada yang kembali murtad. sepatutnya orang sekitarnya perlu membantu dari segi pemahaman agama. yang membawa dia masuk Islam (sekiranya ada) memang dapat pahala, yang membimbing turut mendapat pahala.
dalam kes anak angkat berbinkan bapa angkat memang jelas perlu dinasabkan kepada Abdullah (atau seangkatan dengannya). yang batil tetap batil, yang jelas dinyatakan dalam al-Quran kita perlu turuti. takdenye 'boleh kot'. Islam memang mudah tapi kita ni selalu sangat ambil yang mudah, tak ambil yang berat... akibat nak ambil yang mudah jadilah seperti Bible/New Testament yang diolah mengikut kesedapan nafsu manusia sendiri. wallahu'alam.
jadi, bahasa menyalak itu amat kasar bunyinya. jika kita tak jelas tentang sesuatu baik kita rujuk pada yang lebih arif.
"nak ambil yang mudah jadilah seperti Bible/New Testament yang diolah mengikut kesedapan nafsu manusia sendiri."
ReplyDeleteIt is easy to repeat this popular statement but give me the facts. And then also teach me how Quran's own, more Godly preservation is.
JPN is a national institution that rules by given law. The National Fatwa council would have come out with a lot of fatwas over the years. I would imagine that they would have a list to follow up and talk to respective people.
1. Can JPN not agree to Fatwa council?
2. When i was growing up, understand that this council act as advisory. Is it an arahan now?
3. Can the council use media to further pressure JPN to buckle?
Let us not be caught in the politics.
instead of nak jawab amoker.. saya nak tanya...:
ReplyDelete- kenapa lahir catholic/protestant/orthodox?
- kenapa Injil yang ada di tangan penganut Kristian hari ini ada empat (iaitu Matius, Markus, Lukas dan Yuhana/Yahya)(Lihat al-‘Aqaid al-Islamiyyah, Syeikh Sayyid Sabiq, hlm. 145 & 146)?
there's a book i read that i want to share with you... but later because i've to search for it.. nanti i visit your blog ok.. untuk kita share apa intipatinya...
haji jamaludin - "...e.g apabila seseorang mualaf memeluk islam sepatutnya kad pengenalan beliau sudah otomatik dah tertera agama islam supaya tiada kekalutan apabila beliau mati nanti...."
ReplyDeletei fully agree with the haji jamaludin on this matter. While suealeen rightly pointed out that Majlis fatwa is not the enforcement agency, they are definately not a powerless body. In fact, if I am not wrong, the committee of the majlis consist of leaders in Islam for the respective states with their respective influence and chairing various islamic agencies.
The issue of mualaf not having proper documentation must be handled seriously as it has a detrimental effect both on non-muslims and the reputation of Islam. What I don't understand is the reason for these Islamic agencies dragging their feet in doing things.
KaKiaYam
"...Islam memang mudah tapi kita ni selalu sangat ambil yang mudah, tak ambil yang berat... akibat nak ambil yang mudah jadilah seperti Bible/New Testament yang diolah mengikut kesedapan nafsu manusia sendiri...."
ReplyDeleteFunny, half way commenting on Islam, sue throw in an example of the Bible. For what reason and to serve what purpose is beyond me. Maybe sue would like to engage some commenters to debate about it.
Perhaps Sue could bring forward some verse and aspect of the New Testament which you think diverted from it's original meaning?
Don't do a cut and paste from some Islamic apologetic website. It would be too tedious to read. Just cite some examples which you know off hand and which result in you having such a conclusion.
sue - "..instead of nak jawab amoker..."
better make a qualified explanation of your earlier statement, my fren, instead of asking further questions. Otherwise the discussion will go no where. By the way, I have no problem reading Bahasa.
KaKiaYam
ok.. saya cuba jawab sedikit (sejak menjawab yang panjang akan jadi panjang pula komen di blog cik nur ni). salah mohon maaf, saya cuba terbaik, ada sapa nak tambah, alhamdulillah:
ReplyDeletesaya ada tanya kenapa Injil yang ada di tangan penganut Kristian hari ini ada empat (iaitu Matius, Markus, Lukas dan Yuhana/Yahya).
siapa yang ada kitab2 tersebut silalah buka...
dalam "Perjanjian Baru (New Testament)" sila buka 'Markus, fasal 12, ayat 29'"
"maka jawab Jesus kepadanya. Hukum yang terutama ialah: Dengarlah olehmu hai Israil, adapun Allah Tuhan kita, ialah Tuhan yang satu."
dalam "Perjanjian Lama (Old Testament" pula, 'Ulangan, fasal 6, ayat 4':
"dengarlah olehmu hai Israil, sesungguhnya Hua Allah kita. Hua itu Esa adanya."
perhatikan pertentangan ayat di antara keduanya. jika satu darinya benar, maka yang satu lagi mungkin salah. dalam Bible juga ada menyebut Tuhan itu satu, tapi dalam ayat yang lain pula menyebut Tuhan itu tiga menjadi satu.
"Yahya, fasal 10, ayat 30 menyebut:
"Aku dan bapaku satu adanya."
jadi yang mana satu di antara kitab itu yang benar? Bible juga telah diterjemah dalam banyak bahasa termasuk Melayu.
*maaf la cik nur... memanjangkan ruangan komen anda*
dalam Yehezkiel 23, 1:49, ayat pertama:
ReplyDelete"Datanglah firman TUHAN kepadaku".
dan intipatinya agak lucah... boleh baca online di sini.
also read, How I came to Islâm by Cat Steven and 101 Clear Contradictions in the Bible
ReplyDeleteThank you Sue for pointing out the verses in the Bible. I have difficulty getting a Malay Bible (why is it so, i wonder?) and as such I don't read the Malay Bible much.
ReplyDeleteLet me attempt to explain the verses from my own understanding. Prior to that let me state that my personal interpretation may not be thorough nor correct. Nevertheless, I will try.
For the readers out there, here's the corresponding verses in English -
Mark 12:29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'
31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
Deutronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. 5 Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
______________________________
Sue, did you see any contradictions between these two verse? I don't. In fact, both verses affirm each other. Perhaps I don't get your drift, kind of slow sometimes. Do point to me the conflicting part. Thanks!
KaKiaYam
"Yahya, fasal 10, ayat 30 menyebut:
ReplyDelete"Aku dan bapaku satu adanya."
In english -
John 10:25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
_________________________________
The point here sue, is the fact that you were taught that the grave error of Christians is in believing Jesus as the Son of God. As such, everytime you read the Bible, your mind is condition to find and interpret verses that affirm your belief.
If you re-read (and hence interpret) again these verses with an open mind, you will find no contradictory therein.
Jesus says He and the Father is One in John 10:30.
In Deutronomy 6:4, the commandment is for us to love our One and Only God.
And in Mark 12:29, Jesus explains the most important commandment, which is the same in meaning as Deut 6:4.
For example, if your father say this to you - "Sue, you must respect and honour your father", does he means someone else and not himself?
Sue, hope that is acceptable to you.
Shalom.
KaKiaYam
i'm sorry. thanks for pointing out my mistake. it's supposed to be the ayat Tentang Tuhan yang Esa:
ReplyDeleteUlangan 4:35, markus 12:29, ulangan 6:4, ulangan 4:39 2 samuel 7:22.
vs
Tentang Ketuhanan Yesus:
Matius 5:9, matius 26:2, matius 5:45, matius 27:30,matius 21:18&19, matius 4:5, matius 27:1&2, yohanes 17:23, yohanes 17:3, yohanes 14:28, yohanes 12:45, yohanes 17:8, yohanes 5:30, Lukas 4:1&2, Lukas 2:21.
vs
Ayat yang menyebutkan bahwa Yesus tidak bersatu dengan Tuhan:
Matius 27:46
you can find the malay/indon version here.
kaki ayam, which one do you believe? Jesus was the God's son or Jesus was the God or trinity?
let me put another example:
1. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
- No (John 3:13)
- Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)
2. Does God change his mind?
Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)
Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:
i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)
“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)
ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).
iii. (Lots of other such references).
the source - here.
if GOD is GREAT, why should He repent and make mistakes?
kakiayam,
how many Bible version out there? i found these:
- Old Testament
- New Testament
- King James Version (KJV)
- New Revised Standard Version Bible (NRSV)
- Holy Bible New Living Translation
- The Gospel New Testament
further opinion, feel free to read SERUAN KEBANGKITAN.
kinda like this discourse more than political argument. :D.
yang salah dari saya, yang benar dari Allah swt, wallahu'alam...
Sue - "...dalam Yehezkiel 23, 1:49, ayat pertama:
ReplyDelete"Datanglah firman TUHAN kepadaku".
dan intipatinya agak lucah... boleh baca online di...."
Sue, have you heard of the phrase "reading in context" ?
The whole chapter should be read in context. And when you do, please tell me again if you feel lucah or takut. If you feel that the contents sound lucah, try reading Berita Harian and Utusan on their article on rape and incest. They are much more detail and lurid... :)
Further explanations -
In Ezekiel 23, the prophet condemns the immorality of both Samaria of Northern Israel (23:4,5-10) and Jerusalem of Judah (23:4,11-21). In summarizing the history of these Israelite cities, God likens them to two sisters who became harlots at a young age (23:3,19) and continued their practice to an old age (23:43). Instead of being faithful to God, they constantly turned their affections to nations like Egypt (23:3) and embraced all of their idols and false worship.
Further explanation could be obtain here -
http://www.christistheway.com/2003/a03a06aa.html
________________________________
You see Sue, I don't read the Bible much. In fact, this is the first time I read this chapter. But have you ever wondered why would the same verse has different interpretations between both of us? You see the lust in the chapter, and yet you fail to see the whole chapter in context.
The first few verses clearly demonstrate that the two sisters are actually two cities/places. Be a critical reader sue, otherwise, you will misinterpret much and learn little.
By the way, if you have any questions on the Bible, perhaps you could try searching in the Google first?
KaKiaYam
kakiayam,
ReplyDeletethat's why you should also read the link... the very various links. not just a link that i gave you...
anyway, it's true.. you will puke if you read BH or UM... haven't bought those long time already!
my actually questions are:
ReplyDelete- why there're so many contradictions?
- why should there be so many version? which one is true? Old Testament/New Testament/King James Version (KJV)/New Revised Standard Version Bible (NRSV)/Holy Bible New Living Translation/The Gospel New Testament?
- which one? Jesus was God/Jesus was the GOD's son or trinity?
- why should GOD repent or make mistakes?
to be fair, i've red the Bibles everwhere on the net and also got one at home. that's why i came with various links for us to read.
Sue - "....how many Bible version out there? i found these:
ReplyDelete- Old Testament
- New Testament
- King James Version (KJV)
- New Revised Standard Version Bible (NRSV)
- Holy Bible New Living Translation
- The Gospel New Testament
......."
Thanks for responding, and also to Nur Aflah, thank you for allowing the interchange of ideas and discussion herein.
Now, before I comment on the various version of the Bible, I would like to say that I feel extremely blessed for the existence of so many versions of Bible. In fact, if you want to list all the versions of Bible, i think it may come to hundreds if not thousand versions of it and still counting. Halelujah! Praise the Lord.
Some of the version could be found here -
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Even the Chinese version comes in many types. Recently our church have a Pakistan brother visiting and that was the first time I see a Bible in written in Arabic (but in their own language).
Anyway, why do I see the many varieties as blessing?
1. Different people with different mother tongue will be able to know about God's love and to know of God's plan for him/her.
2. Different versions serve as a good reference to each other. Could you imagine having 10 reference for the same subject?
There are many more, but just state the obvious few reasons.
For your information, the Old and New Testament is not versions of Bible. The Old Testament written before the Jesus times while the New Testament is written after the arrival of Jesus. As such, any versions of the Bible will have both the old and new testaments.
Some muslims apologist always delight in pointing out the many versions of the Bible and stress the inaccuracy due to the many versions. I would humbly disagree on that. The many versions actually allow me to understand the Bible better.
Could you imagine if you only have a single text book for every subject during your schooling days?
With various versions...not only one could have a better, thorough understanding of the subject, you could even spot mistakes in interpretations.
Language evolve, society changes. If you read a 50 years old article in Bahasa you may have some difficulty understanding it 100%. What is more important than to make it easy for people to understand God's words, plans and love for us?
Now, to make it easy for readers by interpreting Bible into different versions
AND
changing the contents or meaning of the Bible is TWO different things.
The easiest example to illustrate this is to get some Bible that was written some years back and compare with the later ones to see if the contents changes. Try doing that, and you will understand that the meaning, examples, and the meaning behind is still perfectly intact.
And lastly, if you think that a Holy Book should never be interpreted or translated to prevent misunderstanding and corruptions, then think again. The various sects and division within Islam are not there for nothing.
The only difference I guess is that it's hard to see different sects existing within the same country or area in Islam. Either you follow the version the majority believes in, or you are labeled a deviant.Hence, one could get a feeling that there is only one version of Islam. The fear of being a deviant is real to the extent that some muslims will usually read about other religions from some muslim website, scared to venture further on it's own and too laidback to seek alternative interpretations out of what the majority believes in.
On the other hand, theological differences (however serious) are much more tolerated within the Christianity world. Which is why, you could see various churches existing side by side without any violent clashes. In fact, I could attend a Roman Catholic mass, a Baptist/Methodist/Presbyterian service and still find myself pretty much at home...
How possible could one belief in something, if one is not allowed to disbelief?
KaKiaYam
Sue,
ReplyDeleteIt is not possible for me to answer each and every question that you copied from a dakwah page. It seems to me you search NOT for answers but questions to justify your claim. And when you search for questions, questions you will get. (I could be wrong with this assumption)
Try to google for answers for the remaining 100 Contradictions. I am sure they are easily obtainable and it all boils down to whether if you are willing to search for it or otherwise.
To answer your questions -
- why there're so many contradictions?
most contradictions is explainable. some can't. Nevertheless, I could accept that. Have you ever wondered, if your claim that the Bible consist of many versions, written by men and corrupted, why wouldn't the group of men who wrote it 'correct' these contradictions?
Funny eh?
On the contrary, I started to wonder should I believe a book just because it does not have any questionable contradictions? When a book is so perfect, doesn't it worth a second thought that it could well be fake and indeed written (or corrected) by MAN?
emm (scratch x2)...something to think about....
_________________________
- which one? Jesus was God/Jesus was the GOD's son or trinity?
Search for the concept of Trinity in google. Trinity is a concept that explains the relationship between God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Do a wikipedia, alright? :)
__________________________
- why should GOD repent or make mistakes?
I think you should do some reading of the Bible before you actually says God repented.
1 Samuel 15:10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel:
11 I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions. Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Check out here -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015;&version=64;
Perhaps you could enlighten me on the version of Bible that the dakwah website uses?
It is obvious that the dakwah website is there just to allow and easy job of cut and paste. It neither explains the proper context and depended a lot on semantics.
Sue, isn't it proper to learn about Christianity from Christianity website? Would you learn about the Malay culture from a Chinese? :)
KaKiaYam
that's more like it!
ReplyDeletethe Quran too has been translated worldwide but the arabic one is still inside without any amendment or revision simply just because it's not a human words. that's why we are encourage to learn & understand arabic and we've never recited Quran in malay or any other languages.
Al-Ankaboot [29:49] : (Al-Quran tetap datangnya dari Allah dengan tidak syak lagi) bahkan ia ayat-ayat keterangan yang jelas nyata, yang terpelihara di dalam dada orang-orang yang berilmu dan tiadalah yang mengingkari ayat-ayat keterangan Kami melainkan orang-orang yang zalim.
Aal-e-Imran [3:79] : Tidaklah patut bagi seseorang manusia yang Allah berikan kepadanya Kitab agama dan hikmat serta pangkat Nabi, kemudian dia tergamak mengatakan kepada orang ramai: Hendaklah kamu menjadi orang-orang yang menyembahku dengan meninggalkan perbuatan menyembah Allah. Tetapi (sepatutnya dia berkata): Hendaklah kamu menjadi orang-orang Rabbaniyin (yang hanya menyembah Allah Taala dengan ilmu dan amal yang sempurna), kerana kamu sentiasa mengajarkan isi Kitab Allah itu dan kerana kamu selalu mempelajarinya.
Al-Kafiroon [109:6] : Bagi kamu agama kamu dan bagiku agamaku.
daripadaNya hidayah, ilmu, kefahaman dan diri kita datang, kepadaNya kita kembali.. insyaAllah..
kakiayam,
i've red your 'mind' from tulang besi's blog :-). i believe websites i referred have carried out the cross religion studies.
friend, really appreciate your time... tq.
It is not possible for me to answer each and every question that you copied from a dakwah page. It seems to me you search NOT for answers but questions to justify your claim. And when you search for questions, questions you will get. (I could be wrong with this assumption)
ReplyDelete- i didn't copy any of the questions ok... the questions are from me. i think you've assumed that i didn't read those. and i don't know whether you read them also.
Search for the concept of Trinity in google. Trinity is a concept that explains the relationship between God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. Do a wikipedia, alright? :)
- i've searched in your Bible and i got my answers :-)
how about a link from an ex-priest?
ReplyDeleteSue - "...- i didn't copy any of the questions ok... the questions are from me. i think you've assumed that i didn't read those. and i don't know whether you read them also...."
ReplyDeleteSue, you did do a copy and paste. And thankfully, you also provided the link for the dakwah website. You should have done a better job by changing some words, otherwise, it's so easy to find it.
I did a copy and paste too and perhaps you could compare that?
_____________________________
From http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0009_page4.htm
79. Apart from Jesus did anyone else ascend to heaven?
* No (John 3:13)
* Yes. “And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven” (2 Kings 2:11)
92. Does God change his mind?
* Yes. “The word of the Lord came to Samuel: “I repent that I have made Saul King...” (I Samuel 15:10 to 11)
* No. God “will not lie or repent; for he is not a man, that he should repent” (I Samuel 15:29)
*
Yes. “And the Lord repented that he had made Saul King over Israel” (I Samuel 15:35). Notice that the above three quotes are all from the same chapter of the same book! In addition, the Bible shows that God repented on several other occasions:
i. “The Lord was sorry that he made man” (Genesis 6:6)
“I am sorry that I have made them” (Genesis 6:7)
ii. “And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people” (Exodus 32:14).
iii. (Lots of other such references).
________________________________
Of course, the issue on hand is not about copy and pasting from an apologetic website. The issue on hand is whether are you seriously voicing your rational doubt or merely defending/justifying your earlier statements by all the means possible.
And as far as I am concerned, I have answered most of your doubts clearly and concisely (hopefully:)). But if you continue to do a copy and paste from a apolegetic website, then this place will be the wrong place to discuss about it, don't you think?
You should have known by now that for all the dakwah website on the net, you will be able to find similar numbers if not more sites that says the same about Islam. For all the so call contradictions in the Bible, you have similar ones in the Quran. My point is simple, even if someone are able to sit with you for a week and debunk all these 101 contradictions, would you at the end of the session embrace Christianity and renounce Islam?
My guess is as good as yours, sue. You will just walk away and still convinced that Islam is the truth and Christianity is false. So why don't we stick to those doubt that really matters to you, instead of enlarging the scope of discussion?
As for the link to an ex-priest, don't you think there will be plenty of high profile muslims that converted to other religion too?
Christianity has her own Achiles heel, and so does Islam.
I guess ultimately the biggest question would be whether all these information/discussion guide you to walk in the truth?
KaKiaYam
"...the Quran too has been translated worldwide but the arabic one is still inside without any amendment or revision simply just because it's not a human words. that's why we are encourage to learn & understand arabic and we've never recited Quran in malay or any other languages..."
ReplyDeleteSo may i humbly asked, what has it achieved that the Quran is still the same from the day it is written to this day? What kind of advantages for having a single copy of Quran, unchanged, unmodified, and act a master copy?
Less misinterpretations? Less disagreements? Would muslims be more knowledgeable and act in a more enlighten manner? Less bigoted and more embracing to others? Up to this day, we still hear of disagreements between mufti's on certain interpretation of verses in the Quran. So what does it serve to have a master copy? :)
At the same measure, how many muslims in Malaysia are able to read Arabic? 10%? or 20%? I leave it to you to decide whether reciting is the same as understanding. And I have serious doubt when you say Arabic is God's language. Arabic language existed long before the Quran is available, so what makes you think it is God's language?
As for the various versions of the Bible, do you really think that the translator takes one copy of the Bible and translate it to another? Some thing like A tells B which tells C, which then tells D? If the translation is done that way, I would have to agree with you that the end result of Bible D would be disastrous. But surely you wouldn't think we would translate in such a way, do you? :)
There are many copies of the original Bibles, mostly written in Hebrew. That's where the source comes from. And to clear your doubt about the translation of the Bible, go and google for Aunt Sally recipe. That is actually a funny but useful illustration. (who says religion has to be boring? :)...)
Or alternatively, check out this short explanation -
http://hedonese1.blogspot.com/2006/03/aunt-sallys-recipe.html
KaKiaYam
let's move on to the next entry by cik nur, shall we?
ReplyDeletesue - "..i've red your 'mind' from tulang besi's blog :-). i believe websites i referred have carried out the cross religion studies..."
ReplyDeletehaha, i have engaged tulang besi once on the death for murtad issue...
quite a lively discussion, i would say. I didn't visit that site much nowadays since tulang besi are not that willing to engage towards the end of the discussion. Question given has yet to be answered. And by the way, you could see from the exchanges that I am more like a agnostic than monotheist, hehe...
By the way, he visited my blog and commented. That's the comment which help me to come to a conclusion that he can be very unreasonable and bigoted when it comes to religion.
http://chickenfeet.wordpress.com
/2008/02/18/rtms-proselytisation-in-bad-taste/
But I do drop in now and then, at the very least, he does not shout and scold like mahaguru58 or menj. I have enough of the emotional shouting and angry yelling from the daily broadcasted khutbah from my nearby surau...
Take care sue and God bless.
KaKiaYam
but before that:
ReplyDelete- why should GOD repent or make mistakes?
I think you should do some reading of the Bible before you actually says God repented.
1 Samuel 15:10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel:
11 I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions. Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.
Check out here -
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2015;&version=64;
**************
maybe i copy-paste but browsing the link you gave me, I red all the ‘books’ inside there. i think you should read the link you gave me again (new international version-UK) and compare with other books.. Lord grieved? regret? repented?
the example from the link is coming from the Amplified Bible:
11 I regret making Saul king, for he has turned back from following Me and has not performed My commands. And Samuel was grieved and angry [with Saul], and he cried to the Lord all night.
and the final verse:
35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death, though Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord repented that He had made Saul king over Israel.
my point is:
GOD shouldn't make mistakes as He is PERFECT, isn’t it? i know we’re not perfect, not the GOD.
**************
Al-Baqara [2:4] : Dan juga orang-orang yang beriman kepada kitab "al-Quran" yang diturunkan kepadamu (Wahai Muhammad) dan kitab-kitab yang diturunkan dahulu daripadamu, serta mereka yakin akan (adanya) hari akhirat (dengan sepenuhnya).
as Muslims, we do acknowledge the original holy book of yours. i really mean the first one of your ORIGINAL holy book!
**************
there you go, talking like you understand Islam more than a Muslim does. ever heard of Hadith or ijma' ulama? ijma' - word coming from the word of jamak means together.
we can tolerate different Muftis opinions. contohnya dalam kes mubahalah. buat pun boleh, tak buat pun boleh. jika lebih ramai mufti cakap tak perlu, maka peganglah ia. this mubahalah thing has history. read mubahalah yang berlaku di antara Nabi (Saw.) dan Ahlu l-Baitnya (a.s) di satu pihak dan Nasrani Najran di pihak yang lain (i bet you won't read).
different views of alim ulama in Islam is a bless to us. they're also writing books but no one has the intention to amend the holy Quran. they will pick the words from there, together with the support of hadith. they can't stand alone without petunjuk because their minds are given from Allah.
i gave you the link to an ex-priest (who has a PhD in christianity theological) so that it will reflect to your own word - "Sue, isn't it proper to learn about Christianity from Christianity website? Would you learn about the Malay culture from a Chinese? :)". don’t tell me he doesn’t understand Christian with that kind of educational background (I don’t think you read it either). in case you’re busy to surf and read:
Old Testament
There exists today a number of different versions in the ancient Hebrew language of the Jewish Book called the Torah [Law] and this is usually referred to in Christianity as The Old Testament. Naturally, there have been many different translations to a great number of languages over the centuries and one could not expect them to be identical in text or meaning. What we have in English today still remains somewhat similar to large amounts of these older documents.
New Testament
There are also different versions of the Gospel or what is commonly called The New Testament in the Koine Greek language and Latin and these also have many translations to even other langugaes. Even amongst the English translations there are great differences. To mention two very clear differences for example; the Catholic Bible [c. 325 A.D] contains 73 books in total, while the Protestant Bible contains only 66 books, and although the newer (Protestant version) was taken from the Catholic Bible even then these books do not match completely with each other. There is no common denominator for any of the many different versions of the Bible.
Dead Sea Scrolls
There have been a number of scrolls and parchments found in places surrounding what we call the "Holy Land" over the centuries, not the least of which are those often referred to as the "Dead Sea Scrolls" or as they are known to the scholars "Wadi Qumran Scrolls." These were discovered in the last century around 1930 and have been proven to be very ancient and could well be older than any other extant manuscripts. Much of what has been translated from these scrolls is similar to some of the oldest manuscripts, but there are still very important differences worthy of note. We would like to recommend some important reading on this topic at the end of this paper.
Quran Means "Recitation"
The word "Quran" means "that which is recited; or that which is dictated in memory form." As such, it is not a book, nor is it something that reaches us only in written form. The documentation in writing about the Quran has been preserved in museums throughout the world, including the Topekopi Palace in Istanbul, Turkey, the museum in Tashkent, Uzbekistan and also in England. Keep in mind also, the Quran is only considered "Quran" while it is in the recitation form, not in the written or the book form. The word for what is written and held in the hand to be read by the eye is called "mus-haf" (meaning script or that which is written down).
Only One Version - Arabic
There are no different versions of the Quran in the Arabic language, only different translations and of course, none of these would be considered to hold the value and authenticity of the original Arabic Recitation. The Quran is divided up into 30 equal parts, called "Juz'" (parts) in the Arabic language. These are learned by Muslims from their very early beginnings as children.
Memorized by Millions - Entirely
The important thing to keep in mind about the Quran is the memorization and transmission of the actual "Rectiation" just as it came to Muhammad, peace be upon him, from the Angel Gabriel and was learned and memorized by his companions and they in turn, passed it down to their followers and continued in this way until we see today, over 10,000,000 (ten million) Muslims who have committed the entire Quran to memory. This is not a small feat. After all, how many other works of literary value have been memorized and passed down through so many generations, in the original language, without a single change in even one sentence?
Each Muslim Has "Quran" Memorized
All Muslims have memorzied a portion of the Quran in the Arabic language, as this is an important part of their daily prayers. Many Muslims have memorized large portions of the Quran from one tenth to one half to all of the entire Quran, and all in the original Arabic language. It should be noted, there are over one and a half billion (1,500,000,000) Muslims worldwide and only about 10% are Arab, all the rest are learing the Quran in Arabic as a second language.
i humbly say that at least we recite and try to understand! as for my family, we recite, try to understand and memorize almost everyday. and i think you are not aware that Arabic will be used on the judgment day.
I don’t want to ask you the question like you did on what has Quran has achieved? I think it’s inappropriate and insult another religion. We have never been taught to insult any religion (of course some of us do as you guys have across the border by insulting our GOD's words).
Take care to you too.
ReplyDeleteSalam Damai.
sue, i am here again....whoa haha! Mintak maaf lar sue, tengah sibuk. Bukan xnak balas, ya?
ReplyDeleteTambahan pula bukannya pandai sangat fasal isu agama, adalah baca baca sikit...maklumlah, convert to Kristian pun tak sampai 3 tahun...
__________________________________
ok, let me attempt to explain...
sue wrote - "...my point is:
GOD shouldn't make mistakes as He is PERFECT, isn’t it? i know we’re not perfect, not the GOD..."
Sue, it seems our discussion are bordering on philosophy, theological and even to the nature of God. If you re-read the same question again, you will find that I could ask the same questions to you. No more is this questions limited to God of the Christian or Allah of the Muslims. The moment we reflected on the fact that every inch of this world and every atom is created by God, questions will arise for monotheist like you and me. Both of us agree that God is omnipotent/omnipresent and omniscience. So why is things not happening according to God's will and purpose? Your answer is as good as mine.
Most Christians are taught not to read the Bible literally, but rather reading it in context and to reflect on the message. Which is why it is such a delight reading the Bible as the same chapter could give a totally different insight depending on situation and application. Now, when I say different insight, I don't mean different meaning. I hope you don't confuse.
As you have told me, you have read the chapter, so you tell me, did God really regretted? Why are you holding so much on the word regretted/repented and pointing out the contradiction? Have you ever thought to whom would God repent to? To himself? And at the same time, you mean God could not regret (kesal) with his actions? You mean you can dictate what God was, is and will? You mean you could dictate what God can or shouldn't do?
Isn't it obvious that you (and many muslim/christians, sad to say) almost and always attempt to put God into a Box and define it at your will? By doing so are you trying to say that you are as Big (if not bigger) as God. Is God limited to the law of Man and the law which He Himself set? Could you realistically say that you understand thoroughly all His actions and purpose in doing things?
Let God be God. Don't try to define what he can or cannot do. In fact, come to think of it, He always surprises us with His actions, didn't He? :)
If you re-read the whole chapter, do you agree with me that the word regret and repent is not so much about the normal meaning of regret and repent? as in Kesal and Bertaubat?
They say when you have question, just Google it..and so i did
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/regret
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/repent
Don't be overly fixated with the literal meaning of word. God is more flexible than we think. But of course there are rules which we knows He does not compromise on, he he...
But above all, understand the fact that we are His children and that He Loves us and want us to return to His warm embrace.
Good weekend.
KaKiaYam
sue wrote - "..there you go, talking like you understand Islam more than a Muslim does. ever heard of Hadith or ijma' ulama? ijma' - word coming from the word of jamak means together..."
ReplyDeleteyou mean just because i don't understand Islam, then I cannot comment on Islam? Isn't that the normal excuse/rebuff by muslims when they refuse to answers/clarify or unable to defend what they stood for? Are you getting defensive sue? If you are, don't be. We are not at war here. And even if we did, there are no territory to be won at the end of the day...:)
sue, for the upteenth time, please send me a link or just give an excerpt to what you want me to know, no point cutting and pasting from some unknown website without making a small note. Saya ni jenis senang keliru ler...
as for the mufti different opinions, i think you misunderstood me. I didn't say that in Islam there can be NO different interpretations. What I am trying to say is that EVEN when the Quran remains in Arabic and remains the same since it's inception, there are still confusion of it's word and interpretation. So your point that Bible changes and have different meaning and interpretations, apply very much to the Quran too...
I just wonder, if one is too fixated to read the Holy Book literally to the extent when God suddenly appears in our dream and tell us that there is a typo in the Quran. Would we actually disbelieve him? Just wondering aloud...don't start another discussion on this, just ignore a mad man like me...that think too much... :P
sue wrote - "i humbly say that at least we recite and try to understand! as for my family, we recite, try to understand and memorize almost everyday. and i think you are not aware that Arabic will be used on the judgment day. ...."
hahahah....that was cool...suddenly a universal God has become Arabicised, instead of universal. I guess that a good example where culture, norms and prejudice of the day found it's way into religion that is suppose to be relevant all the time and to all people. Jews believe they are God chosen people and they believe their God centers around Jews only. And now, you think that Islam centers around anything Arabic. I geuss, many religion suffers the same way too...sigh....
sue, i suggest you read up on some history of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. This afternoon went to Borders and found a book by Karen Armstrong. Very good insight, but too expensive. Don't worry, she is not a Christian, or even if she is one, she is very critical towards Roman Catholicism. Very balance book that seek to examine the history of the Abrahamic religion.
sue wrote - "...I don’t want to ask you the question like you did on what has Quran has achieved? I think it’s inappropriate and insult another religion. We have never been taught to insult any religion (of course some of us do as you guys have across the border by insulting our GOD's words)..."
sigh...., if you take that as an insult, then there's nothing more I can say. To question is not to insult. Always remember that. By the way, many of your imam insulted the non-muslims every now and then in their khutbah. You should know that better than me. At the very least from the sermon that I have attended in so many churches within malaysia and sabah, none, actually criticise Islam. If you think a tit-for-tat is the right thing to do, then religion you have, faith you don't.
by the way, to clear up the air, I merely says that a 'non-translated' Quran still managed to cause sects and division within Islam. I say the Quran achieves little in THAT sense. Don't misunderstand, alright?
By the way, Raja Petra got a funny article which most of us agree....
http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=9212&Itemid=38
http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=9775&Itemid=84
And the best of all - http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?
option=com_content&task=view&id=8337&Itemid=38
Of course, these articles have nothing much in common with what we have discussed. But aren't they damn well the sad truth?
KaKiaYam
hi.. i'm back too... what a terrible weekend... sigh! still hurt inside (but not by you lah..).
ReplyDeletekakiayam,
not to be defensive, i respect your explanations & also your believes .. i don't want to drag this any longer.. i just want to share you one link to a Denmark forum which i really enjoyed reading it last saturday... i want to join but as you said bukannya pandai sangat bab agama...
Islam and Bible Prophesy.. Who is the Beast?
if you read it, you'll know what the west has been thinking about Islam especially lately. mungkin tak semua, but some of them yes. and in our country, Islam (and other religions as well) is luckier than everywhere but we're improving... at least that's how i think about it!
so, peace!
4 L leceh lembab lomah longlai
ReplyDeletedio org kena tunggu kelulusan vertican george bush..kot kot aje nie..nanti aku suruh white house backed up..
ReplyDelete